While Lizzie is my favorite character on the WD the producers and writers of the show have come out and confirmed that Lizzie’s psychiatric issues pre-dated the apocalypse. They hinted at that on the show when Mika already knew the exact way to calm Lizzie down during her freakout and when Carol…
1) Just because some of her symptoms fit ASPD, doesn’t mean all of them do? A lot of things Lizzie did related to me as an autistic person, clearly not the violence or killing part, but the meltdowns especially, and the way of viewing the world that others may not quite understand. This is a problem with the show, all they wanted to do was conflate mental illness and disorders with violence (which is fucked up), so they just gave Lizzie a bunch of various symptoms that fit different disorders.
2) most people with ASPD don’t become serial killers.
3) people with ASPD don’t deserve to die just because of their disorder. especially not children, wtf?
4) now obviously killing someone aggravates this, but Lizzie clearly thought that what she was doing wasn’t harmful. she thought her sister would come back. instead of explaining gently to her why her beliefs were wrong before this happened, everyone just kept yelling at her that she was wrong and telling her she was messed up.
5) Lizzie does display compassion, although it’s towards zombies.
6) how does the fact that her mental illness / disorder predated the zombie apocalypse make her more deserving of death?
1) Several different types of personality and mood disorders share symptoms. Many people can display one or two of the symptoms and not have a disorder at all. However all of her characteristics put together are what lead me to believe she suffered from ASPD. Her violence being one of the most important. Her lack of empathy, her lack of remorse for killing, her fascination with Judith struggling under her hand while suffocating her, her slicing up small animals and nailing them to boards for her personal entertainment, her lack of understanding right from wrong, her having more of an interest in walkers (whose words she could control since she claims they speak to her, which if true would mean that whatever they’re saying is whatever she is projecting onto them) than living humans, etc. Also Lizzie is based off a character from the comic books so the show didn’t make her up for any of those reasons.
2) The majority of them they don’t, but a small percent do. I never said she would become a serial killer. I said she had the potential too.
3) Where in my post did I say that Lizzie deserved to die? In my opinion I would have preferred if she lived. Shes one of my favorites characters on the show so far. I would have loved to see where they could have taken her character or have learned more about her life before the ZA.
4) Carol, Mika and even Carl tried to explain to her that walkers are dead several times. Lizzie was beyond comprehending it from them. I’d assume Mika had many conversations with her about it and its possible her own father knew of her view and tried to explain it to her. If the most important people to Lizzie (Mika and Carol) couldn’t get through to her I doubt anyone else in the group could have. Lizzie would have required time and a therapist to ever understand it. Neither of which were available.
5) Lizzie displayed more “compassion” to passing walkers she never even knew than she did towards her own little sister who she grew up with and her father. If you don’t see the problem with that….
6) My previous post was directed towards people who think her psychosis was caused by the apocalypse not whether I thought she should have died because of it. If you want to debate whether or not Carol should have killed Lizzie then looking at it from Ty and Carol’s point of view….they didn’t really have a choice. In the real world she’d get help and there would be a chance that she could be taught right from wrong. However in the middle of a ZA there was no one around them who knew how to handle a psychotic child. After Lizzie helped kill the walkers by the fence Carol was under the impression that Lizzie finally understood that Walkers are their enemies. Once Lizzie killed Mika there was no going back. She killed the last living person she had left in the real world in favor of her make believe world where walkers were her friends. She had a clear preference for dead things(regardless if she thought they were dead or not) to living things like people and even animals. Like Carol said, she couldn’t be trusted around people anymore. She couldn’t continue to travel with them because she was a threat to Judith (who she would have killed if they arrived even one minute later) and them as well since she had a gun. They couldn’t leave her behind because she’d be a danger to any well meaning person who came across her. Not to mention how it would be a fate worse than death if they left her behind and she came across a group of men who would take pleasure in doing things a lot worse than just killing her. If they left her and no one found her then she’d either slowly starve to death or be painfully torn apart and eaten by the walkers. They had no options left on the table but to do what they did. Do I think she deserved it? From my perspective living in the world I live in no because she could seek help. In the Walking Dead world? Just because she didn’t deserve it doesn’t mean it wasn’t
sadly the most logical and safe option they had.
1) lizzie could also have multiple disorders? i mean, it’s not like people always only have one disorder. and i mean, ASPD cannot even be diagnosed in children under age 18 for a reason. but even if we are going to treat lizzie like an 18 year old (which we honestly cannot), she wouldn’t fit so many of the symptoms. she doesn’t have a pattern of lying, she hasn’t engaged in multiple physical fights or assaults over a long period of time, she’s the opposite of irresponsible (she honors what she feels are her obligations to levels where she’s honoring these obligations too closely), she doesn’t have a reckless regard for the safety of her and others (completely the opposite, she follows carol’s instructions about safety almost perfectly), she doesn’t have trouble planning ahead. you’re basing your feelings of her having ASPD on pure stereotype, and basically assuming the only and the defining symptom of ASPD is violence, which it’s not. it makes way more sense to view Lizzie as someone who is experiencing delusions. this is something that could be due to a variety of different mental illnesses, but is not a symptom of ASPD. people with delusions and psychosis who hear things that cannot speak can speak are not necessarily projecting their thoughts onto them. i hear voices, but that doesn’t mean I’m suddenly a cruel self-absorbed person who just wants to hear my own thoughts. it just means i’m mentally ill. (and the tv show strays from the comic all the time so thats hardly an excuse.)
2) that still doesn’t make people with ASPD more deserving of death. which, again, lizzie would never have been diagnosed with.
3) your entire post was defending killing her?
4) …. in the most condescending “you’re wrong, why can’t you see that you’re wrong” way ever. the majority of kids aren’t going to respond to being told anything in that manner.
5) i never said it was a healthy thing? i said she is capable of compassion towards creatures she truly sees as human. she’s certainly not incapable of compassion, even if that compassion is misdirected.
6) a response to people (children!!!) not being able to get help from mental health professionals is not to kill them, it’s to find someone who can give them help. they’re going to terminus, what is the likelihood that there would not be some form of former mental health professional there that could help lizzie with the delusions she was experienced. they clearly have a lot of people, given all the advertising they’re doing.
1) ” she doesn’t have a reckless regard for the safety of her and others” Her entire story arc is how her mindset about the walkers caused her to act recklessly making her a danger to herself and everyone around her. She repeated wandered around the prison unsupervised feeding walkers rats in the darkest most unsafe parts of prison and also feed walkers near the gates which could possibly be one of the causes of the increase of walkers near the fence, she almost suffocated Judith while zoning out to the point where she left her sister in danger, she played tag with walkers mistaking them wanting to eat her as “wanting a friend” and would have been killed if not for Carol, she tried to call to a walker in the prison like a dog and would have been killed if not for one of the adults saving her. Shes the exact definition of irresponsible. The only instructions she follows are the ones she wants to, which were have you knife on your belt and your gun ready. It begins and ends there.
We may not had seen a pattern of lying yet but she was only in what 5? 6? maybe 7 episodes with about 30-40 minutes of airtime at most. I’d assume if any adult ever asked her where she was going when she went missing while on her walker feeding sprees in the prison she lied. She also expressed annoyance at Mika for outing her about the dead rabbits meaning that she knew and understood to hide that side of herself and that she would be chastised if anyone found out she was killing for enjoyment. It also means that Lizzie had killed more than just the few rabbits in the forest and the one Tyrese found to the extent that Mika knew. I doubt she was killing these rabbits in her cell. She most likely committed those actions in the dark end of the prison no one went too (where Ty found one) and irresponsibility let Mika come along.She had a bloodlust and liked to exert control over anything smaller than herself. It wasn’t until the Judith crying scene that she suddenly realized she could push those fantasies onto people.
We can go down the whole list of ASPD symptoms if you want. She was very aggressive when challenged as the show displayed and I doubt Mika didn’t put up as fight when Lizzie gutted her. She had no empathy and no remorse for anything she did. The “don’t worry she’ll come back” was her rationalizing her killing. She rationalizes all of her actions. Even if she was 100% convinced Mika would could back that doesn’t excuse the pain she knew she would be inflicting on Mika by thrusting a knife into her stomach. That doesn’t change the fact that she knew it wasn’t what Mika wanted. But she rationalized it by saying “Sometimes you have to do mean things to people.” There was always an excuse why what she did wasn’t wrong and there would always be an excuse. She had no concern for Ty’s feelings when she insulted Sasha in front of him. Every single person around her told her she was in the wrong yet she still believed she was correct even when put into situations where she was proven wrong (when she leading away Glenn’s walker like a pet only for him to attack her and when Mika was almost bitten). She had no problem attaching herself to Carol but the relationship quickly fizzled as Carol spent more time with her and finally saw the side of Lizzie that she was hiding. Also keep in mind she was approaching puberty and her symptoms were likely getting worse as she got older. Her not displaying every symptom to a T doesn’t mean she wouldn’t fully embody them by the time she was 18.
She very well could have been suffering from several disorders. I’m not only focusing on her violence. I’m taking everything into consideration and theres obviously several problems (for example her hearing voices). But it is her extreme violence that leads me to believe she had the potential to grow up to be a killer regardless of whatever disorder she was suffering from and regardless of what world she lived in. Its hard to ignore when almost all of her actions on the show involved some level of violence in the most unnecessary situations (even for a zombie apocalypse). Having the potential doesn’t guarantee that it would happen. She could have been treated with medication and years of therapy and could have ended up alright. Because you’re right she was only 11 or 12. But you’re thinking about it from our society’s point of view. In the walking dead society is dead. There is no one to help her and the show intended for her to be a psychopath whether you choose to look at it that way or not. This was one of the storylines that the writers chose to follow almost exactly (they did stray a bit) from the comics and that character was a future psychopath. Not everyone in Lizzie’s situation would have become a killer but she did. You’re taking it incredibly personally how they handled Lizzie’s character and you’re comparing yourself to Lizzie but you’re ignoring that you said the key things that differentiate you from her. You don’t torture animals or smother babies. Lizzie enjoyed both. In my opinion (not from the mouth of the creators) her fascination with the walkers was just an extension of her fascination with death (that she had long before the end of the world). She’d be more comparable to someone like Jeffrey Dahmer who spent his childhood preoccupied by death and dead animals bodies. She obviously had an interest in dissecting dead bodies as seen by the rabbit she nailed to the wood. In a way her seeing the walkers as “alive” meant that she could then do to real living humans what she did to those rabbits (as she ended up doing to Mika) and it wouldn’t be wrong because shes not killing them as long as she doesnt “hurt their brains.” That was her way of her satisfying her bloodlust and rationalizing her actions at the same time. In our reality she may have come up with a different reason why her killings were okay.
Lizzie is a fictional character in a fictional society where there is no help. There is no medication. Its not as easy as someone sitting down and talking to her. You’re trying to pinpoint the 2-3 times someone yelled at her about her viewpoint on walkers when it was clearly shown that they had already spoken to her calmly about the subject and were losing their patience with her as she became more and more dangerous. Lizzie had no compassion for human beings. It doesn’t matter if she, in your mind, showed compassion for the walkers because at the end of the day they weren’t people and it didn’t stop her from harming every. other. living. thing. on the planet.
My original post in no way said anything about killing Lizzie. You missed the entire point of the post if you think its about that. Read the title of the post. I never said a thing about killing Lizzie.
Now while its fine to debate Lizzie’s symptoms and what she could have become in the real world setting it makes no sense trying to think about Lizzie’s death in real world standards. Shes not in the real world. In the real world she would be sent to a mental institution if she killed her little sister and expressed a desire to kill a baby. That wasn’t an option here. What would you have preferred they do with her? She would have killed again as she got older and the older she got the better she would get at lying about it and hiding it and creating a mask to hide who she really was. Thats it. Thats her future. There was nothing else. Thats the word of the creators and thats what they wanted their character to symbolize. Its in no way a reflection on what they think of mentally ill or disturbed people in real life because the show isnt about real life.
Carol and Ty don’t even know if Termiuis exists. They don’t know whats there and they dont know who is there. What are the odds there is a highly qualified psychologist who specializing in whatever Lizzie is handling? Stop idealizing a zombie apocalypse. They could take Lizzie there and she could fool everyone there the same way she fooled people at Woodburys and the prison and end up killing another child. they tried to help her but the girl was too far gone. She killed her little sister the same way she killed rabbits. She was only going to get worse in the environment she was in. She was a threat to everyone around her. I’m beyond sad to see her go but what else was left? There was no help for her in their world.
I had a whole post written out but I accidently hit the back button on the computer and it all got deleted.
However, the thing is, even though of course I’m not violent, the stereotype of mentally ill people as violent affects me, because I’m mentally ill. I do not think the creators did any research on ASPD, and almost all the behavior you cite as reckless is not reckless in the context of Lizzie’s delusions. Lizzie does not go into situations she believes to be unsafe, she just has a false perception of what is safe. At any rate, they basically created a modgepodge of different tropes about mentally ill people, rather than doing any research, and then decided that this mentally ill character would be violent.
Also, there were plenty of characters with physical illnesses that got help within TWD, why the fuck would it not be the same for mentally ill characters? Also, the response to not being able to help someone who is ill should not be to murder them.